Posts by Lily Pie

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Good point designs.

I think it is risky for people to hop from one religion (which is spiritually abusive) to another. Maybe you are right, people like this might need a security blanket, and indeed are not addressing the real issues in thier life. It's tricky, I can't really appreciate what it is to be a JW, and then convert to Christianity, though surely it is clear by what people say on this board that exiting the religion can be traumatic in many different ways. Going to another religion might be counter productive. If you think I am on here to convert others, you are mistaken, (you might reach that conlcusion I can not blame you for that), I don't think that it would be tactful or dignified.

I used to be a huge *hater* of ALL religion. JW'S were a little worse then the others, because they like knocking on doors at 9.30 on a Saturday morning.... ;) I changed my mind over time however. Before accepting Christ, I was extremely successful, personally and professionally and very happy. Not insecure, actually everything was great. Thats what is amazing, it was challenging and uncomfortable to become a Christian, it took a lonf time, I didn't fit in at first, but I was, and still am compelled to it. Once you start believing in the possibility, the reality leaps out.... It is a supernatural experience.

Though Designs, seriously, it is a good point that you make. I absolutely can see your point of view. Really...

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Thank you Leavingwt, and Syl. You answered my questions succinctly and perfectly.

Its peculiar that WT publications have completely glossed over these theological issues, and I have not seen an article by them ever addressing not being saved by works, and the value of faith.

Leavingwt would say it is because they are a cult I think.

Poor Syl, nervous breakdowns suck. My hubby had one at about 19, the effects of it lasted for years. I'm sure you won't be surprised that he was raised in this religion. (Yes you would think he could answer my questions, but he says he never listened because it was all *bullsh*t* and he always knew it.)

Ding, I think you may be right in your summary. This 1000 year reign thing is the worst bit of it. Imagine 1000 years of being yourself, practising being perfect.

Thank you everyone for your contribution. It has helped. It's just so confounding I have to admit.

Just one final comment. If Jesus didn't die for all Sin, why would God have his One and Only Son be crucified? I suppose I already can guess the answer to this. Jehovah's Witnesses won't be able to answer the question, they will evade the point I'm trying to make here. I'm deluded? Well it's not just JW's who think this. Atheists do too.... ;)

Bless you all.

Lily Pie

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Debator

Prov 3:5-6. Is a nice motivator isn't it? The "Authority of God" requires that we Trust in Christ, not the Law. I hope "Grace" is not used as an excuse to sin. I want to clarify a mainstream Christian attitude towards this topic. It's kind of like this. We feel compelled to Express Gods Love in Our Lives... Our love for God, and belief in Jesus helps us with this. We give glory to God, and please him when we act as we should. This love and personal relationship is the best motivator. We do not fear losing our life.

Lily Pie

38

"Evolution is JUST a Theory!"

by sabastious in

and i feel a little sheepish.. check this out:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/plate_tectonics.

^ plate tectonics (from the late latintectonicus, from the greek: ?

Lily Pie

On and odd note. I love the theory of evolution. It's my favourite scientific discovery of all time. It makes me weepy when I'm out in nature and I see it's effects in real life.

So beautiful.

You can believe in evolution AND God. I don't see why not. As a species we have believed much stupider things.

Lily Pie

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Thank you all for your posts so far.

So lovely to take the time.

Thank you Gladiator for your thoughtful post. Your quote, from WT literature, though old, is probably still very relevant. "Credits" hmmm. You would always be wondering if you had enough wouldn't you? I'm interested to know whats parts of the bible JW's use to *show* me about earning my salvation.

What do rank and file JW's really believe about this (Grace, salvation with faith alone)? That you earn salvation? Do they view Christendoms ideals of Grace for salvation with contempt? Or are they ignorant, is it a non issue?

*******

Interesting about the translation. I have a different view. I think that evenwith a biased translation like the NWT, you could sit down and read it with an open heart and mind, and reach the usual conclusions about Grace, Faith, Works and Christ. it's difficult to pervert the word so badly that the big picture is missed. The problem is the translation is way to clunky, it's easier to read the WT. They removed "Grace" out the translation, to differentiate themselves maybe?.

You could use "grace" as a verb or a noun? It doesn't change the overarching theology does it?

*******

Debator. -- Love = Charity. Indeed. God is love. God is Charity. Examples.... Matt:22:36-40. Matt:24:34-46. Grace, through Jesus, is the greatest reflection of love and/or charity. John3:16.

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Stephen. Thank you for replying.

I have been told by a Jehovah's Witness that when one gets resurrected they get another 1000 years to *practice* for the next judgement. This is a really confusing viewpoint. That I'm not sure is shared by all JW's. So I'm happy to hear someone else who has heard this same version. It is surprising and interesting. This same person also highlighted the value of works, and trying to be good enough. Though these ideas are qualified by reminding me that we are all imperfect.

I checked the NWT, and you are right. But we can be happy that the *meaning* has not been lost in Eph2:8 (the verse I checked)

Lily Pie

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Hi debator. Thank you for your time.

We you and I, agree completely on the faith/works thing. I too would use the James quote, to define my position on this.

Yes I agree that Grace can be a verb and not a noun.

And you know what else i agree that preaching is a serious commission from jesus. Indeed the entire new testament from my point of view is a call to action.

Since you are a practicing JW, I wonder if you can comment, if you have an opinion on what mainstream Christians believe on the whole Faith Works equation?

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

*Cute* fokyc. I'll have to wait and see what you mean....

I am new. Thank you for welcoming me...

272

Grace According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie in

hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.

i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

lutherans say.

Lily Pie

Hi, I'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my JW relative. I am so curious to ask this question, but I fear asking a practicing JW, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.

Lutherans say. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, Because of Christ Alone.

All Protestants agree on the Five Solas. Particularly it is important to note they beleive.

1. That Salvation is a gift - it cannot be earnt, especially since we all fall short of deserving salvation by a large measure. (GRACE: Gods Riches At Christs Expense)

2. Believing in Christ is sufficient for salvation. However saving faith is evidenced by good works. I think like this "FAITH WORKS"

The Watchtower says they believe (according to thier website)

People God approves will receive everlasting life

John 3:16 ; 10:27, 28 ; 17:3 ; Mark 10:29, 30

Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans	Matt. 20:28 ; 1 Tim. 2:5, 6 ; 1 Pet. 2:24
Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient	Rom. 6:10 ; Heb. 9:25-28

(** it seems they have inserted words like "approve" and "Obedient")

Any way, I don't really want to have a debate on the merits of the doctrine itself. (If you want to do that though you are welcome) I am just really really curious..... see the following questions.....

What do Jehovahs Witnesses think of Christendoms take on *Grace* and the importance of active faith over works?

What do Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe both privately and publicly on the effect of Christs ransom on salvation?

Any other comments?

I feel bad for the JW's doing the doorknocking. Not only is it counterproductive, but it's an unnessesary work isn't it? If your hearts not in it I don't see the point......

Thank you for taking the time to answer this. You guys I'm sure will be a good sounding board....

Bless you all.

Lily Pie

153

Oz Govt following UK & French lead on Tax/Charity status

by Mattieu in

just another update on 1 australian senators quest to squash the tax free status of scientology/jw's and other cults:.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/call-for-independent-charities-commission-20100912-1570g.html.

now the election is over, hopefully wont take too long for legislation to pass.

Lily Pie

I'm curious. Why does any religion have a "right" to earn profits free of taxes? There are rights, and then there are priviliges.

To re-cap. Profits are Income less expenses. So why would a religious organisation need a surplus? The only reason is to purchase assets, or accumulate funds for future activities. Shouldn't an organisation in order to claim tax-free status have to "prove" that they are intending to use these surplus funds in a way that promotes the wellbeing of people.

In Australia, the Scientologists have been targeted directly by the government because they refuse to be "transparent", and you know, wheres theres smoke, theres usually a fire......

The willingness of an organisation to be transparent to governments and the public at large should be the measure used to determine eligibility for tax concessions. and the onus of proof that they are indeed acting in good faith, for the benefit of people, should rest on the religious organisation.

I think this standard should apply equally to all religions.

(BTW the watchtower isn't being targeting in australia, scientology is.)